misc music and Question for singers who accompany themselves

[d_trektone_w]

I'm looking forward to getting Tori Amos' new album, American Doll Posse. Releases today.

Lately, I've been listening to cacie's CD, Dialtones. I really like the way her voice was recorded. It doesn't seem like all that long ago she sang "Mommy, Can I Have a Spaceship" to/for me.

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Bf2007 really likes American Idol. It was fun watching him and debmats talk about it over dinner last week. How many more months before it's over?

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During my stress-out the last few weeks, I made a note to myself to go back and read telynor and peteralway posts about learning and playing the mountain dulcimer. Back when I was with Lewis, we went spent a weekend in Mendocino, up the coast from San Francisco. At a music store, Lark in the Morning (that now has a shop in SF), I ended up buying a dulcimer. Without any actual instruction I learned to play Cyndi Lauper's song, "Fearless," after watching/rewatching her videotaped performance on the RuPaul show. Bought a couple of books, but never got around to learning. I don't like traveling with my guitar these days and, especially after the guitar-killing event I don't plan on borrowing someone else's. Hey, additional incentive to learn a new instrument!

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First off, I don't consider myself an instrumentalist. I do like to sing and while in recent years I haven't felt like singing a lot, I'm starting to want to again. I'll probably do a separate post about my desire to join a chorus. This bit is about choosing an instrument to accompany myself/oneself.

When I've bought guitars in the past, one of the things I've done is sing and play before I make the purchase. Mostly, I want to make sure the blend sounds/feels right inside my head. However, I also believe, somewhat semi-arrogantly I suppose, when I'm singing on a regular basis I can make tonal/timbre adjustments to voices and instruments around me. Of course, it probably sounds different to listeners. And with the myriad modifications that can be made when amplification occurs ...


My questions to you singers who accompany yourselves:

How much do you care, if at all, how your voice sounds with the instrument(s) you choose?

What do you do to make sure voice/instrument fit together?

How do you make peace with what you hear inside your head (voice/instrument) with what you hear in recorded playback or comments from others? Is this significantly different from recognizing/liking your recorded voice?

Comments

[the-gwenzilliad.livejournal.com]

How much do you care, if at all, how your voice sounds with the instrument(s) you choose?

It's important to me, but luckily, I think my voice sounds good with most stringed instruments, and I do my best to blend in with whatever I'm playing or playing with at the time. Like you, I started out as a vocalist (I studied choral music, classical singing and opera), and while I have developed into a very good harper over the years, I still think of the voice as my primary instrument. I also consider that my voice is not lovely; it's just very well trained. When I began accompanying myself on the harp, it seemed natural enough to work with parts of my range that seemed to work with the harp. Later, people would tell me that my voice just tended to blend properly with the harp, but I'd have to say this is really more luck than craft. ;-)

What do you do to make sure voice/instrument fit together? Mostly this has to do with arranging. I tend to play countermelodies on the harp so that it accompanies me in sometimes the same way a second human voice might. I like fingerpicking on the guitar/dulcimer, since my voice is not strong or loud enough to stand up to flatpicking and power chords, and I prefer to be heard over the instrument I'm playing when I sing without amplification. While I am not overly concerned about keys, I am concerned about where a song falls into my vocal range. If I cannot sing every note completely comfortably when warmed up (I'm not talking about just lazily placing everything in the middle, which we all tend to do), then I transpose it. The harp is naturally in C, but I can accompany things in many keys, as long as I don't have to play a lot of passing tones. My dulcimer, which has several extra frets, has considerably more potential for accompanying in different keys, and the chords I've already learned on it have given me a great start. I am never afraid to move something into another key if the one I find it in gives me vocal trouble in either direction. One caveat: I hate capos on a guitar. I just hate the way they make things sound. It doesn't take much work or time to transpose chords into another key, and those strings sound *so* much better when they're open.

How do you make peace with what you hear inside your head (voice/instrument) with what you hear in recorded playback or comments from others? Is this significantly different from recognizing/liking your recorded voice?

You're gonna hate me. I do not perceive a difference between what I hear inside my head and what I hear in recorded playback and what other people say about what they hear. I never have. It was a revelation to me to find that other people do not perceive their own voices in the same way I perceive my voice. Maybe I've just always been a loudmouth?

[trektone.livejournal.com]

Thank you for the thoughtful and detailed post.

Regarding harp accompaniment choice. Early on, did you decide on wire/steel strings over gut/nylon based on how you sang with the harp? I know you are accomplished in your playing and wondered how that fit in. Or if you've posted it before, feel free to direct me there. I do like how you write.

I'm definitely with you on having the song properly placed for the voice. It's probably more difficult for those less experienced or still learning about their own abilities.

You "hear" the same thing from the inside as on playback -- interesting! There are times I hear it the same way and other times I don't. I've found there is sometimes an emotional component in the moment that makes what I'm singing feel "better" or "worse" than the recorded version so I'm surprised in good ways and not.

[folkmew.livejournal.com]

Short reply due to life (tm):

I do care how my voice sounds with instruments but I can usually blend as needed.

In the case of my wolf dulcimer which was the first time I had an instrument made specifically for me I just trusted the luthier. I gave him a recording of CO (which admittedly is a YOUNG sounding mew now but hey) and also had spent some time hanging and singing with him. He knew I wanted a baritone but I think made it warm and yet bright enough to compliment my voice.

I care more about what kind of mic I use. I learned from first the OCP days and then more with Thor and then LSP and the occasional other recording I've done that a mic can make a WORLD of difference. But you know this.
I guess my voice sounds different to me on recordings but... not much these days.

I've gotten intensely lazy because Ed is so good at arranging so that things sound great with my voice when I take the lead (which is more than him since we are still working on his voice and his main instrument is piano but mine is assuredly voice.)

Does that help? And - Joey! Dulcimer!! I'm lovin it!!

[trektone.livejournal.com]

Have you experienced singing with an instrument or instruments where you felt the tones were simply not matching up? I know a few vocalists who mostly care that their voices are in the forefront of whatever accompaniment is happening. It doesn't seem to matter as long as they can hear themselves.

I did try some nylon string guitars early on, but at my skill level at the time the sounds, though nice, didn't have as much variety as steel, to me.

We'll see about the dulcimer. :)

[folkmew.livejournal.com]

Not surprisingly you'll find that there are a wide variety of sounds you can get out of a dulcimer. Lorraine is amazing at that. She bows, she uses a slide, she picks, finger picks, uses finger picks, uses a noter, chords... and developed a capo for dulcimer.

She used to ride me to make sure I strummed over the sound hole area when I wanted a full sound. The dulcimer will vary a lot too - my Jeremy Seeger, an excellent little dulcimer itself, is much sweeter and warmer overall but my wolf is a bit flashier and brighter. I think both sound nice with my voice but each feels different to me. I hope I get to the point where I am playing both more regularly!!

I haven't done much playing with the type of strings I use though - that's one thing I haven't done yet.

let me know what you find out.

Oh - and to be honest? I can't remember a time I felt my voice really wasn't working with an instrument. Maybe that's because I so consciously try to blend my voice with what and whomever I am working with?? I dunno.

The biggest "voice/accompaniment" epiphany of recent years for me was discovering what a JOY it was to sing with Ed playing piano. He plays a lot of instruments well, but he plays piano in a way that just lets a singer float on top without any worries. It's like he just knows exactly the right thing to play to support but not overwhelm the voice. It's really fun. I love when we work up a new voice piano arrangement. Mind you it is cool to try to work up dulcimer, hammered dulcimer, recorder, drum, guitar etc, but voice piano is the BEST! :-)

hugs

[smoooom.livejournal.com]

The reason I have the guitar I have is because it matches my voice so very well. I hadn't realised that was was I was looking for till I found it. I feel that the guitar supports my voice, or lends it's qualites to it. Since I'm a vocalist not a guitarist I think this is important. I don't want a guitar that over powers my voice. I don't know how my voice sounds outside as compared to the inside. I shudder when I hear some of the recordings of my self. But I don't think I sound as bad as those recordings make me sound. (I hope) I don't ask for feedback very often, I'm afraid I won't like the answer. so I have no idea if my perception and others perceptions match up. Perhaps I should pluck up the guts and ask a few people.

[trektone.livejournal.com]

If you haven't heard many recordings of yourself, how do you know the guitar matches your voice? That's one of the things that lead to my posting the questions. That is: might it be useful to get feedback from what the outside experiences and not just what's inside? For me, in considering the dulcimer I wondered if what I liked might not sound so great.

[catalana.livejournal.com]

How much do you care, if at all, how your voice sounds with the instrument(s) you choose?

A great deal. One reason I go for guitars with a good bottom end is because it fits better with my voice. (Since, after all, I'm an alto. *grin*)

What do you do to make sure voice/instrument fit together?

Try to pick instruments that work with my voice. Also, I adjust the accompaniment and vocal quality to the song. So, for instance, Starshine and Moondust is fairly high, and it's played higher on the guitar (to go with the more ethereal vocal quality.) Ruins is a low song, and I play in a way that emphasizes the bass part of the guitar.

How do you make peace with what you hear inside your head (voice/instrument) with what you hear in recorded playback or comments from others? Is this significantly different from recognizing/liking your recorded voice?

I stop listening to myself recorded. *grin*

Okay, not quite true. I am an incredibly vocal perfectionist (although from what I hear, not in your league *grin*) and doing those parts of my album was torture because I would hear things I didn't like and have to redo them over and over again. Ultimately we went for a compromise of "Sounds good enough and isn't worth redoing" where I fixed all the things that made me wince a lot and didn't worry if there were some minor things that weren't noticeable to anyone but me. (And I ascertained that they weren't noticeable to anyone but me by asking people what they thought of a particular phrase.) Having people whose feedback you really trust makes a huge difference; I trust Roper or Gretchen or Dave Clement to tell me when something goes horribly wrong.

And I've finally made my peace with the fact that I will never have a delicate, angelic soprano like Sarah Brightman and now sing things that suit the more earthy, bluesy voice that I do have. *grin*

[trektone.livejournal.com]

When you chose your guitar(s), did you have others with you to give their comments as well? I like Martin guitars because they have a "boomy" bottom I like to hear and since I don't flat pick, I feel it rounds out the overall sound when I sing and fingerpick, but I've gotten mixed feedback on that subject (though it might be from anti-Martin snobs -- LOL! just kidding).

I am an incredibly vocal perfectionist (although from what I hear, not in your league *grin*)

Exaggerations for sure!

Feedback is definitely helpful, expecially from folks one trusts.

[trektone.livejournal.com]

Actually, I don't think your voice sucks, though I can understand why you feel it's not the ideal for your pop/rock/electronica instrumental styles. The recordings of yours I remember seem to be crowded with tracks so I'd be interested in hearing a couple with you and acoustic guitar. Is that too alien? :)

[trektone.livejournal.com]

I listened to "Roam" a few times. I kind of like it!

[allisona.livejournal.com]

Hee, maybe I'll answer the interesting deeper instrument/voice question later, but I can answer the "American Idol" question now :). They are down to a Top six with two going home this week, so I assume the show goes on for five more weeks.

You can tell your AI buddies I think Jordin may win this, but I'm voting for Melinda.

[debmats.livejournal.com]

Melinda is my favorite too.
My top three? Melinda, Jordin & Blake.

[allisona.livejournal.com]

Ah, I thought Melinda was terrific tonight- yay! I wasn't sure how she'd handle "rock night", but she had that Tina Turner vibe going and I totally dug it :).

What with Jordin not doing so well tonight tomorrow night's vote-off could be interesting. Can't see her going home yet, but she was tonight's weakest link.

[trektone.livejournal.com]

Thank you -- only a month or so to go! Whew ...

I'd be interested in your thoughts about voice/instrument. With UT I'm sure there's a lot of attention to detail, including balancing voices with instruments, and appropriate use of all.

[hsifyppah.livejournal.com]

I buy instruments that make me go "ooh, PRETTY!" when I play them, with the secondary concern of can my voice be heard over them. I have two banjos that I love hearing that don't really fit the style of music I mostly sing. I play them mostly when I accompany other people, play instrumental bits (mostly to myself at home), and the odd appalachian murder ballad, because a banjola is too pretty for a good ol' murder ballad. And Nate Bucklin songs seem to need a real banjo for some reason.

So I think quite a bit about how the instrument fits my voice when I'm deciding which one from the stable I should haul up on stage with me for song X Y or Z, but when I'm buying them it's more about what sounds interesting TO me rather than WITH me. Most of my playing in the end is practicing at home, so I might as well please myself. This is some serious after the fact rationalizing, of course; in the music store it's 100% "The music fairies bonked me on the head and I'm in LOVE and I want THAT ONE!"

[trektone.livejournal.com]

Therefore, the strategy is to buy what you like, then mix and match for accompaniment? Good plan. Hee!

[robin-june.livejournal.com]

Gosh, Joey, I never thought about that before!

My rosewood addiction was planted in my teens by the choice of classical guitar that my mother bought for me (after the family cheapo starter, and then the hand-me-down from my cousin). This was just after when I first started group choral singing, and before I had expanded or polished my vocal range.

My guitar playing and my vocal singing just grew, separately and together, and the deep warm bass and midrange of the rosewood complemented my alto, then + tenor, then + mezzo-soprano voice.

And how do I make peace with what I hear inside my head? Either it's a question of tuning, or practice. If tuning won't fix it, then I check for a lifting guitar bridge. (Found 2 so far. Both fixed now.)

[trektone.livejournal.com]

Hey Robin! Thanks for the post. Do you ever think, "wow that sounded great in my head" and then find the recording is less good? Or have you gotten to the point where you can tell? I've found there are times where the sound balance between my singing I hear inside and my guitar-playing seems fine and then I get feedback that one or the other was too loud.

[sillermoon.livejournal.com]

Thanks for mentioning the new Tori album, I hadn't heard. Which is sad because back in college I was quite obsessed with following everything she did. This is the second album release this year by a favorite artist that I didn't know was coming out!

I've never tried playing and singing together though I may once I get my piano tuned. I hate how my speaking voice sounds on recording, haven't been able to gain access to my singing voice recorded/record it in a quality manner.

[trektone.livejournal.com]

I continue to be a Tori fan, especially through recent albums. While I've enjoyed some of her covers, like "Smells Like Teen Spirit," I mostly didn't love the Strange Little Girls album. Was happy with Beekeeper, though, and most of Scarlet's Walk. As for her oldies, "Silent All These Years" almost always makes me cry and I still love "China."

If you don't like your speaking voice, have you ever tried placing the main vocalizing higher or lower? Or otherwise changing it?

Yes, do have the piano tuned if it gets you playing and singing. More music!

Good instrumentals over bad, regardless of range

[sdorn.livejournal.com]

I got over the head/air transmission difference long ago, though it hasn't improved my voice any. ;-) You just get used to it, that's all.

Apart from strings and the flute, there is no crafted instrument that is nearly as versatile as the human voice, and I don't know of anyone who can play a bowed instrument or flute and sing at the same time. (The disproof of that statement is left as an exercise for the intrepid reader.) So I've never thought of accompaniment as anything other than adding texture, chording, and perhaps counter-melodies on my very, very best days after much practice. The result is pretty freeing: anything that adds texture is fine as long as the sound is good. Then again, my natural range/tonal quality is light baritone. But I think the rule would hold for almost anyone: when healthy, your voice is going to be more flexible than your instrument. Banjo, dulcimer, guitar, mandolin, drum, piano, what have you... just go for it!

Re: Good instrumentals over bad, regardless of range

[folkmew.livejournal.com]

Eliza Carthy plays violin (fiddle) and sings at the same time quite frequently. I know there are others but she is the one who popped into mind first! :-) Just sayin'

:)

Re: Good instrumentals over bad, regardless of range

[trektone.livejournal.com]

I love it: air-head transmission! (Hee!)

I've been to a concert where a cellist sang while playing, and I liked the performance. Gosh, don't remember the person or group.

Part of the questions had to do with sound preferences, too. For example, I don't love high, narrow, tinny sounds put together, like some Indian music, both traditional and pop. I like to think my guitar and playing, such as they are, help bring additional fullness to my vocals. When I hear what I perceive as separate or separated kinds of sounds, I sometimes wonder if it's me or if there was intention in the presentation. I realize at some levels, it's plenty to bring the singing and playing simultaneously, if not together, and attention to other performance aspects are much lower priority or not considered.

I'm with you on the flexibility of the healthy voice, especially with more singing experience.

[carolf.livejournal.com]

(coming late to the party ...)

About instrument vs voice and how I choose:

For me it's as much the feel as the sound. My arms are disproportionately short and my upper body (ahem) disproportionately large. So the guitar has to fit my body if I'm to play it. This is not as simple as it sounds; small guitars do not have enough "voice" to match mine. Sometimes, I just have to wield a larger guitar, and forget about what I look like while I'm playing.

Other things affect feel, too. Nylon or steel strings? Wide or narrow neck? Sometimes the music will dictate this. (I remember Pete Grubbs once borrowing my Spanish guitar because, he said, "there are just some things you have to play on a classical.") Some things are easier to finger with a wider neck, some are easier with a narrow one.

Generally, nylon strings will be too soft for my voice. I also like the cleaner (to me) sound of the steel strings. My voice is a fairly pure one, and the steel strings compliment that.

So if it feels good, and neither of us outshouts the other, and if I can do both sweet and sassy with it, then I've found my guitar.

Other instruments I'm less picky about. A piano is what it is, and since pianos are difficult to carry around, I pretty much take what I get. I'm still to new to other instruments to know one way or the other.

About that *&^#!& recorded voice:

I hate my speaking voice when it is recorded. In my own head, it is more velvet, lower, sexier. I prefer it so strongly that I simply cannot bear to hear my recorded speech.

My singing voice recorded sounds different than what I hear in my head, but it still blends the way what I hear blends. I'm not sure how that happens. I remember when I first did choral work in college, I didn't know how to blend my voice to others, and I couldn't get in to any of the a cappela groups. Over time, though, I learned to listen and blend, until I can do so with a wide variety of voices and instruments, although I'm nowhere near as good as I'd like to be. So I have no complaints about blend.

I simply don't like the tone quality. I prefer the one in my head.

So I can't reconcile them. I recognize that they are different, stop listening to the one I don't like, and breathe deep prayers of gratitude when other people like what they hear.

By the way: Nice finding you!